Matt Sodnicar 0:00
Good. Yeah. Anytime anybody says trust and like here, please sign on the dotted line. Yeah. Cool. Well, we're rolling. So I wanted to start just by asking about your writing process, because one of the reasons I'm doing a podcast is that I started a blog 678 10 years ago, and it was so hard to write, I wrote probably two posts, and I just couldn't do it. So I'm easier at thinking and speaking. But take me through how it went from an idea to actually what we have published her in front of us.

Ellen Busch 0:40
Sure. So when my mom passed away you know, it was just an incredible, shocking and traumatizing event.

Matt Sodnicar 0:56
And how long ago was this? That was 2013. Okay.

Ellen Busch 0:59
I knew at that point, I had a powerful story to tell. Because just a few months earlier, I had escaped from my ex husband or soon to be ex husband. So this was all on the same year. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it was actually January 23 of 2013. That I got out. And then my mom had her accident on December 6 2013. So here I am trying to put my life together. And I'm starting to do that. And I have this incredible traumatic tragedy, family tragedy.

Matt Sodnicar 1:43
And we talked about that on the first episode, right? That was the letter we read from the organ donor, or recipient, I guess, yes,

Ellen Busch 1:49
yeah. And I've written about it in the book and quite detailed, there's a whole chapter dedicated to that. For obvious reasons, it's a very important event. And at that point, I started writing and I was just kind of letting ideas and parts of my story just kind of spew out onto the computer screen. And then I realized I needed some help. And I went and found a writing coach. And working with her was fantastic. Her name is Kate gray. And she's recently retired. So it all you prospective writers out there. But I could always ask for referrals. And she helped me just focus on certain ideas, and certain stories or parts of my stories, and helped me to just get them onto the paper onto the computer. And then we would start to move them around and weave them together. At the same time, keeping in mind that there needed to be an arc of the entire story moving together. So we would weave stories around, or weave them together from different parts of life. But something that had a common theme, you know, an example would be all the time I spent fishing with my dad growing up, we were on the water, we were on the ocean. And I weave that together with my stories from Outward Bound, because I spent two weeks on the Green River. So the common theme was being on the water. And that's really hard to do. So I needed the help of a coach. And I thank God for because it wouldn't have been anywhere near as good as it is. And she really worked with me to get out of the linear thought process.

Matt Sodnicar 3:43
Talk to me more about that, because I've read some books that are both from I would say self published or yeah, just people getting started, or other books from more famous people that I just, it felt like a PowerPoint presentation. So the linear Ness if that's a word, trademark what were some of the, I guess, actual practical tips that she had talked about?

Ellen Busch 4:22
You know, my instinct was to go to the linear thought process. That's very logical. Sure, start when you're young, and then you tell your life story as you age and move through life. And she had to hound me quite a bit in a professional, nice way to really get me out of the thought process. And there are some people who think that that is okay, or that that's a writing style or a way of telling the story. But what she conveyed to me was that it would be much more interesting by weaving these stories together. from different points in Life

Matt Sodnicar 5:01
couldn't agree more. Yeah.

Ellen Busch 5:03
I mean, how many of us watch a movie, or a Netflix series where they bounce around in time, right. And those are the really interesting stories. And once I saw and really understood what she was trying to convey to me, I agreed with her 100%. And then we just focused on that. But here's an interesting story, is once I got to completing the first draft of the manuscript, the next step is to move into the editing process. And I went to an editor who basically told me, I should do it in a linear fashion. You want to see me panic? That made me panic.

Matt Sodnicar 5:49
How long was it to get to the editor? What was the duration of good five years? Oh, wow. Okay,

Ellen Busch 5:55
a long time. Now, I had a lot of life happen in that timeframe. And I think it was really meant to be because when I started writing, and what I ended up living, and adding to that book, was really important. I hadn't lived all the chapters here yet. So I had to do that. That was just the universe at work, from my perspective. And then, you know, I really thought about it and really sat there and read through and listen to the editors comments. And then I said, No, this is, this is good the way it is, and I'm really happy with it. And then once I found my publisher, I started to work with her and her editor. And they were on the same page as me. So sometimes it's just a matter of opinion. writing style. Sure, yeah.

Matt Sodnicar 6:53
Yeah, I think about that, too. And one of the books I was that it just popped into my head, I've found it a little free library down on Tennyson, and it was already laying he's a comedian is his biography. And it's linear. And it bit I just stopped reading it, because, you know, maybe it's the style or something and nothing hits him. But I wanted to get to sort of the, like, the Hollywood parts of it. And yeah, like, I think having a roundabout ways weaving that in, at least for me, it's way more interesting. But the editor part, you know, that's the thing is, it's so subjective it is. And I was thinking that I couldn't be a country music reviewer, because I hate it. That's not your genre. It's not. So I come in biased, and I wouldn't know what's good or what's different. And so that's something else I'd love to talk about. So the editor has a conflicting view of your artistic and your writing coaches. Basically, the whole work. Yeah. So what was that decision point? Like to continue on?

Ellen Busch 8:08
Well, at that point, I stopped working with that editor.

Matt Sodnicar 8:15
Problem solved.

Ellen Busch 8:17
One way to look at it. And I had found my publisher, and I have and now do we want to jump into the different kinds of publishing and what different options are? Because I did not go the traditional publishing route? Yeah, sure. And I did not go the this self publishing route, because I knew I didn't know enough about the industry. And I knew I needed help.

Matt Sodnicar 8:43
Yeah. That is your show. You're talking about whatever you want. Okay.

Ellen Busch 8:47
Well, thank you for that. Well, so what I found was Jessica Buchanan, who has an absolutely incredible story of her own. And she started a publishing company to raise up women's voices. I thought, oh, my gosh, that's who I want to talk to. And I'll just briefly give you an overview, but of her story. Most Americans know who she is. Because did you and I talk. I don't think we even talked about this yet. I don't think we did. Okay. Jessica was an aid worker in Somalia. And she was kidnapped. And by I don't know, remember the date the name of the group, but it was a terrorist group. And she was held for debt 93 days. And on day 94. President Obama sent in SEAL Team Six, guns blazing and they got her out her and another man. They got them out alive. She survived. And she has her own incredible story. She wrote me possible odds, which is a New York Times bestseller. And it just chronicles her story of being a kidnapper kidnapped and surviving and making it home. She started this company, and it's, I would what we would call a hybrid publisher. So it's not a traditional publishing house, and it's not a self publishing, it's actually in the middle. And to get a book published in a traditional process, you really have to be somebody famous. Like Jessica, okay, it's really incredibly difficult. I had talked with my coach about possibly going down that road. And she was telling me that I would need to do a book proposal that had to be 75 200 pages long. And then you have to get a book agent and and they go around, and they pitch you to the different houses and it can take, it can take years. I just knew I wasn't interested in that. That process or that challenge. And just because whole context around raising up women's voices. You know, when she and I met, I immediately knew that she was the person I wanted to work with. And it has been wonderful working with her. And also her editor and her marketing person. So I ended up where I supposed to be.

Matt Sodnicar 11:31
That's good. That's kind of usually how it happens, isn't it?

Ellen Busch 11:36
If you're on the right path?

Matt Sodnicar 11:38
Yeah, yeah. Or you'll find out pretty quick that you're not that you're

Ellen Busch 11:42
not. And hopefully you listen to that. Yeah.

Matt Sodnicar 11:47
So let's start jumping into the content a little bit. And I encourage people if maybe hit pause, and go back and listen to the first episode that Elena and I did to talk about sort of the backstory for this. Yeah. But was their story or stories that gave you pause? Or concern about putting those in the book? Oh, yes,

Ellen Busch 12:17
quite a bit. The chapter where I talk about two of the most influential men in my life, one was positive. And he was very important to me. And the other was my ex husband, who was psychologically and in one case, physically abusive. I had many concerns. How much do I want to reveal, I'm really putting myself out there, I shared some very romantic moments with my college boyfriend, who was the positive influence on me. And they were deeply personal, but I really wanted the book to be authentic. And I knew unless I went that deep, it wasn't gonna come across as authentic. So I've also masked his identity. So I had to make certain things very vague. He was also in the military, specifically the Marine Corps. So I actually spoke with Jessica, my publisher has a attorney that she works with. So we talked about making sure that I wasn't going down the road of possibly getting into some security issues. So not that I would even know much anything, but it's sometimes you know, and you come from military family. So sometimes just knowing when somebody deploys, you can sometimes bump up against things and not even know it. Sure. So I just wanted to be super careful and make sure that I had that taken care of properly and legally. So I was confident in that. And then, you know, I talked about some very specific incidents of how my ex husband treated me and the night that he assaulted me. One of the coaches I've worked with, who's an amazing coach. His name is Dennis striker. And he's recently retired from the FBI. And I worked with him and he reviewed those chapters with me looking at it from a law enforcement perspective. So I felt much better having his input and then also having a lawyer's input. And then also having, you know, the emotional support from a law enforcement officer say, officer to say, you know, maybe you don't want to go there. Yeah, you know what, that's really okay. And maybe other women hearing that Dori is really going to be helpful or hearing that detail. And the whole context of the book is to help people. Right. So does that answer your question? It does. Okay. It does.

Matt Sodnicar 15:12
And I asked it for a couple reasons. Because I think in today's culture where Instagram is all highlight reels. Yeah. And most people's lives are messy, and backstage and the struggle and the challenge, things like that. And also being a I don't know if the right term as a visceral learner, but when I was in school, I would have the theory and the problem would have to do in the homework, but I would actually have to run through it. And so if I'm trying to learn something, and it's quite ambiguous, and if it's yeah, just to paraphrase, like if you're sick, oh, the relationship was pretty rough. Right? Okay. Yeah, that doesn't know, now and not, but also then just being graphic for the sake of not shock value, but there's a there's a line and a degree of context in there. And so I was just curious about that, because, and then also to the thought that popped into my head is that friend of mine, she said that one of her friends goes to therapy, and she just lies to her therapist about why she isn't going. Exactly why spend the money. Why waste the time? Yeah. But once it goes on the printed page, or this recording, or whatever, you know, that's, I think that's something I've challenged myself to do is just to speak the truth. Or don't say it. So that's why I was very curious about that, that approach

Ellen Busch 17:06
in great questions, because that was something I worked a lot with my coach on Kate. She would say, okay, that's what you did, or that's what you saw. But Ellen, I want to know how you felt?

Matt Sodnicar 17:20
Yeah. Because that takes it from a PowerPoint presentation and a linear. Yeah, so rather than bullet points, because I think you need ball for a compelling story. You do? Yeah, you do.

Ellen Busch 17:30
So she would help me to understand where there were places I needed to compress information, and especially around the feeling pieces of it. That's where she would want me to expand. And we went through every chapter, every paragraph, every page with that context in mind. And I'm incredibly pleased with what came out. At the same time, as I'm moving through the editing process, I definitely moved through a months of fear. And just really kept asking myself, Do I really want to put out such a deeply, deeply personal story to the world? Because I have made myself incredibly vulnerable. But it is authentic, it is real. And

Matt Sodnicar 18:25
so how did you answer that question?

Ellen Busch 18:27
I got a lot of support from some pretty amazing friends who were helping me through the process. I worked with a lot of other writers in the book. I do talk about other writers and other people that I've met. And when you go through that process, you have to get permission to quote them, you have to get permission to use their name. And I wanted to make sure what I wrote about them was accurate. It's got to be right. So there was a lot of interaction going back with several of these people. So I got to work with them. And they were very supportive. In that process, I would say at least three or four other writers. I think the fear process was just a process to move through. I just needed to get comfortable with putting my story out there and knowing that it would never be pulled back. And I did and I reread it and edit it and reread and reread. The editing process alone took about a year. So,

Matt Sodnicar 19:45
so that decision to publish. Was it a quiet moment? Do you kind of remember when you push the button so to speak?

Ellen Busch 19:55
Yes. And I'm going to answer that with two separate answers. So the whole reason for diving into the riding project is that this is my hero's journey. And anybody who's familiar with Joseph Campbell, and the hero's journey, knows that the last part of the hero's journey is for them to bring what they've learned back to their tribe. And that's after they've taken on the challenge and fought the dragons, and they've won their battle. That's the last piece. And I really felt deeply compelled to do that. Because what I have learned is so valuable. And I want to share it with people who need it. So there's that piece of it. And then tell me again, tell me again, the question, I'm not remembering it. That's my Dyslexic mind. Oh, moving through the fear.

Matt Sodnicar 20:52
The decision point, remembered if it was just a quiet moment,

Ellen Busch 20:58
it wasn't a quiet moment, it was just a process. But where I should say, and when we got to the final version, and it was done, it was complete. I sent it to Jessica. And then she sent it off to America publishing, who does the physical publishing. And I sat there after hitting send. And then she turned around, and she forwarded it off tumeric. And she let me know that that was complete and said, Congratulations. And I sat there, and I was in shock. And I couldn't understand why I was in shock. What were you feeling that I didn't understand what I was feeling? Oh, and she kept, she emailed me back. She's like, Ellen, how you doing? She's very supportive emotionally, which is what writers need. They need that from their publishers and editors. And I don't know, I don't understand what I'm feeling. And the only thing I could compare it to was the shock that I felt when my mom died. And I was like, wait a minute, that doesn't make sense. And I gave myself some time to process it. And it took about two weeks. And then I was sitting there with this manuscript in front of me. And I realized I had chapter upon chapter upon chapter of just on really relentless working through unbelievable challenges. people abusing me. And my never quitting and giving up on myself. I 230 pages of that. And then I realized and I sent Jess back a two word, email. And I said, I won. I beat the system, that trill Yeah, you did. Beat him, I beat the system. I beat you know, the abusers, the bullies, I beat them all. I won. And I healed. And I realized also that I fought for 47 years for my self esteem and self worth. And I won. And I never ever gave up on myself. And that is an incredible accomplishment. Most people never get there. And from that point, forward, life looks very different. That's big.

Matt Sodnicar 23:32
That's huge. Yeah.

Ellen Busch 23:33
So just to give a little bit of background, you know, the reason I use that number 47 years is, I'm 54. And I was six or seven years old when I was slapped with that dyslexic label and intellectually disabled and all of that mess. So but from that point forward, I fought for myself until that book, till my book went out to the publisher to be physically published. So that's how I put parentheses around it if you will.

Matt Sodnicar 24:05
Your question was such a wonderful surprise, because well, I got a backup so when he asked me like, what the question was I don't know if you saw like a panic in my face. Like, I'm so present than late. I thought you would remember what I was talking about. Yeah. But they were it was somewhat expecting and I never tried to guess an answer when I asked a question was if it was the if the hero's journey was complete, and if you felt not only a great sense of accomplishment, but also an emptiness for the now what? But your your, your answer was so incredible and compelling and just the person persistence and resilience, which is these are topics I've been exploring for years. That's the only answer you could have responded back to her with right.

Ellen Busch 25:12
One of the things I have learned is that a life that's really well lived is not just one hero's journey. You go and find the next one. Yeah. And that's where I am. And it's interesting. The other thing I've learned, or one of the other things I've learned, is that I am so focused on my self exploration, personal growth, healing, that I have moved into this cycle of consistent challenge, growth, transformation, rinse and repeat. And it's exciting. And it's a little bit scary, because there's always the unknowns out there. But you'll learn to live with that.

Matt Sodnicar 26:05
The unknowns are going to visit you whether you want them to or not, yeah,

Ellen Busch 26:08
you're doing the work or you're not doing the work, the unknowns are gonna show up. So mice will do the work and get some of the rewards with the unknown.

Matt Sodnicar 26:16
So exactly. At least have a little bit of hand on the steering wheel about your unknown. Exactly. The healing I really wanted to talk about that, because

Ellen Busch 26:27
it's so important.

Matt Sodnicar 26:29
Yeah, having been through like, I don't ever want to stack deck trauma stack or trauma compare. Everybody's been through everything. Right. But talk to me about the healing and those steps and those that journey. I'd be fascinated about that. Sure.

Ellen Busch 26:54
So I think the first thing to talk about when it comes to healing is I think the biggest barrier to healing ashame. Brene. Brown does research on this and most people know who she is. Josh Mons, who wrote beauty of the darker soul who have seen speak, twice, writes about this as well. Shame stops a lot of people from getting the help that they need. It is destructive. And in some cases, I think people are dying because of it.

Matt Sodnicar 27:34
Sure. I don't doubt that one bit. Yeah.

Ellen Busch 27:37
And the reason I start out with that is because I made a very conscious decision to refuse to be ashamed. I just said, I'm not doing it. Because I knew when I got away from my ex husband, I was in deep trouble. I was so traumatized. I was driving through stop signs and red lights. And I knew I needed help. And I knew that if I

Matt Sodnicar 28:00
because you're unaware or on purpose,

Ellen Busch 28:03
because I was when I would drive through a stop sign, I just Oh my gosh, oh, well, what, what I'm a massive I just and I was it was it was happening more than once, you know, it was happening on a regular basis. Instinctive, instinctively, I knew that if I didn't take a long, hard look at myself, I was going to repeat these mistakes again. And I was lucky to survive the first time. And if I repeated these mistakes, I might not survive the next time. And I wasn't willing to do that. So I was willing to do whatever it took. So I initially started out working with a therapist had some stumbles there didn't find the right therapist right away. Went to work with an amazing life coach who really kind of launched me in that direction of being able to create my life, and the forward looking piece of it. Because I don't think a lot of people understand that working with a therapist tends to be backwards looking, working with a coach is forward looking. So it's a different context. And there were times where I was working with a therapist at the same time that I was working with a coach. And I did a lot of EMDR work. I've done probably five years of intense EMDR work, which for me is incredibly effective. And I'm surprised at how fast it works. I mean, one topic a few minutes with with the therapist, and I will also say make sure you work with somebody who's credentialed and trained in EMDR, credentials, credentials, credentials. There's a lot of crackpots out there. So be very careful who you choose to work with. It's, it was so effective with be it would be just almost instantaneous, I would that piece would be healed. Now I'm talking small pieces.

Matt Sodnicar 30:13
Sure. Where did you start, if you don't mind me asking with the therapists and the EMDR,

Ellen Busch 30:20
I was still living on the East Coast, okay. And I found a specialist or somebody who's certified in EMDR, I've also done acupuncture. I think that you have to find the thing that works for you. Because whatever resonates with you may not resonate with me. And it may also be a matter of timing. So just because EMDR may have not resonated with me 10 years ago, or 15 years ago, fast forward a few years, it resonated with me then. And the same thing with talk therapy, and working with a coach and acupuncture or whatever modality that you choose. I think it's just a constant unfolding, or experimentation of finding what works. And just exploring that, and not having any attachment. And just say, You know what, let's give this a try and see if it works. And if I feel better, I'm gonna keep doing that.

Matt Sodnicar 31:31
Be a blank page,

Ellen Busch 31:32
yeah, but a blank page. And then if it stops improving my life, well, then I'm gonna walk away from it. But I can come back to in a couple of years and say, Well, maybe it's time to try that again. So a lot of just really open mindedness and also a real commitment to he'll have real consistent effort to say I'm gonna do this, I'm and I took it on the same way I took on fighting through the school system. I wasn't gonna quit on myself, and just kept working and finding different things that would work.

Matt Sodnicar 32:11
Well, I think the there's a power and the humility, of

pause, I need to grab. So I wrote down humility, because I think, reaching out to a coach, and I heard a lot of childlike mind and blank page with the therapy and what was working, because one of the things I realized very early on, in my second half of my life was that, oh, I'm not supposed to have all the answers here. So try something and it it aligns with like scientific progress, it aligns with entrepreneurship, basically anything where we don't have the answers. And so try something. And if it works, great, if not, try something else adapt. So I just wanted to point out that I think there was just great power in your humility in approaching this. Because the arrogance of either thinking, you know, what's going on, or pretending you know, what's going on when you obviously don't? That's where you get into trouble.

Ellen Busch 33:28
And I approach things from the Explorer archetype. And if it's an experiment, there's no, fail.

Matt Sodnicar 33:43
That's right, because there's no predefined outcome, right?

Ellen Busch 33:45
It's just an experiment and see what happens. And if it works, let's try that again. You will have to tweak it a little bit, but that's okay. Or maybe we need to tweak it a little bit to get it get us moving in the direction that we really need to be going. Yeah. So I think looking at it from that perspective takes a lot of pressure off a lot of pressure.

Matt Sodnicar 34:12
Right, because there should not be any fear of failure,

Ellen Busch 34:17
right? Especially when it comes to healing. Right? You know, and that can be problematic because there may be people around you will have expectations about your healing, and your healing timeframe and what it should look like, who you should be talking to

Matt Sodnicar 34:33
by next Thursday. That means you to be done so many years,

Ellen Busch 34:37
you really should be done with this or, and I've heard people talk about that in their experience, but you know, your healing process is going to be your healing process. And nobody can tell you what that should look like. Unless you have a therapist who's telling you a credentialed therapist who's telling you that there's something seriously wrong That's a different scenario. Yeah, yeah.

Matt Sodnicar 35:10
So going back to your ex husband, How have your or have you had romantic relationships since the book journey has started? And how have those been different? or what have you been? Like, take me through that. Because that I can imagine that could be of triggering as the right word. But facing those circumstances, again,

Ellen Busch 35:37
it's a great question. You know, for a long time, I just didn't want to date. I didn't want to date anymore, have anything to do with anybody. And in the interim, there was the ex boyfriend, I don't want to give away too much about the book. And I will put a little teaser out there, college boyfriend and I, the Marine, he and I reconnected actually for about a year. And the reason why that happened was because I trusted him. And I reached out to him for help and support. I didn't know that that reconnection was going to go down that road, I was just looking to talk to a friend who I trusted ended up while I won't tell anybody, well, obviously, it didn't work out because otherwise, I'd still be with him. And that's okay. Again, another part of the healing journey. You know, and then moved into just after, after that, I just really focused on taking care of my dad. Because the time when my mom died, he needed, he needed somebody to look after him. He didn't need, you know, specific clinical care, he took care of himself, he drove, he had friends, he had better social life that I had. Women chasing him, my mom always said it was so funny, she said that something happens to me, the women are just gonna be flocking to him. And she was right. It was really funny. So and these were just friendships, they weren't romantic relationships. So I focused a lot of just take care of him. And then he passed away and I moved out here. And continuing to work with a new counselor being here in Colorado, I've done some dating. And then kind of walked away from it for a little while. To the tables. We kept it's okay, Casey can be part of the recording.

Matt Sodnicar 37:47
quality production.

Ellen Busch 37:50
Oh my gosh. So, you know, when that's something I've talked with, with a counselor, and I'm just getting back out there now and just, you know, just dating and seeing what's happening, and again, approaching it with the same context. Sure. Let's just see what happens. So, but so far, I haven't met anybody who's really caught my interest. So

Matt Sodnicar 38:11
well, you will on the book tour.

Ellen Busch 38:15
Well, you know, that's something I've thought of, you know, because I'm really putting myself out there. I'm like, Hmm, I wonder what's gonna show up? You never know. So, again, not attached. Just want to see what happens.

Matt Sodnicar 38:28
Just be open to possibilities. Yeah,

Ellen Busch 38:30
exactly. Exactly. So, yeah.

Matt Sodnicar 38:34
So would you do the book again, looking back on it? Or do you have another one in you?

Ellen Busch 38:39
Yes, I would do the book again. I am thinking about writing another one. And then bouncing around some ideas. But nothing is formulated yet. And I've been talking with Jess about kind of outlining that and what that'll look like in the future. I don't think it'll be a memoir, the way this one was, okay. Maybe more of you know, these are the important things you need to have in your life. And we talked about an idea of like, all different see words like community commitment. Kind of looking at chocolate wasn't but we could put it on the list. And then I'm also currently taking a coaching course, with Mark Devine and the unbeatable mind coaching program, because that program has been so much a part of my learning to thrive. And having a coaching certificate really helps me to follow that passion of helping other people gives me a credential.

Matt Sodnicar 39:52
And one question about the book, or another question about the book rather. So when I first started this podcast, it was it was called burn the boats. And so it was talking about, I wanted to talk to entrepreneurs. And I was curious about the inflection point of if they ever quit, or how close they got to quitting, or techniques and tactics they use to not quit. And so writing disempowered? How close did you come to walking away from it?

Ellen Busch 40:28
I don't think ever really did. I just took it on, like I took on that 47 year battle of fighting for my self esteem, I just was not going to quit. I just kept plodding along and plodding along. I think that's one of the reasons why it took me so long.

I knew I could go really slow. And if that's what it took, that was okay. Because I think going that slow, kind of prevented me from getting to that. Contemplating then the Q question. And I never got there. I avoided it by just being methodical and step by step by step by step. Yeah.

Matt Sodnicar 41:21
I, this just popped into my head, I was listening to a podcast, I'll look it up. But they were talking about end of life, in the author. In her research and her work, she had realized that there was an entire infinity before she was born and lived where she didn't exist, right. And there's this blip in the radar. And then there'll be another infinity where she doesn't exist. And so, but as you're talking about being methodical and plotting, there's been a whole infinity where your book didn't exist. And so if it was another couple of months, couple years, 10 years, then that's fine, too. So in the grand scheme of things, doesn't really matter. Right? Note for the listeners are our podcast studio, meat smoking, kitchen. It smells really good. It does. Oh, man. I've had dogs drink water. This is great.

Ellen Busch 42:37
Well, you know, one of the things that Jessica shares when she speaks is, you know, from her experience of surviving being kidnapped, is that things take the time they need, right. Which I have to sometimes remind myself, I think we probably all need to remind ourselves because things don't necessarily move at the pace that we want them to move at.

Matt Sodnicar 43:04
Silly humans trying to inflict our will on nature and physical

Ellen Busch 43:08
verse. Yeah, exactly.

Matt Sodnicar 43:12
That's true. Like, yeah, the it takes 365 days to go around around the sun. Yeah, if you believe that sort of thing.

Ellen Busch 43:23
Unless you're part of the flatter of society. Oh, my gosh.

Matt Sodnicar 43:29
This has been absolutely wonderful. And I'm so excited to read that and to see it here on the table. Yeah. And I can hold it in my hands. I know. Do you still look at that sometimes and or just,

Ellen Busch 43:45
I'm used to it now. Yeah, but when the first copy, so what they do is they do two copies. And that's it. One goes to the publisher Mungus, the author. And then that's a chance to read through it and just make sure the pages are numbered correctly, you know, just all the final details. And I had just come home from skiing. And the Amazon package was right there on my doorstep. And I picked it up and I opened it and I just said oh my god.

Matt Sodnicar 44:15
shirts are real.

Ellen Busch 44:19
And I took a picture of it with my you know, so you can see my hands and I just started texting it to all my friends and like it's here. It's here. It's real. So at this point, I'm pretty used to it. I have a box of them like last night.

Matt Sodnicar 44:34
Well, it's been it's been wonderful to get to know you and I encourage the listeners to go back and listen to our first episode. Yeah, definitely read the book because you've been it's been great to know you and watch this journey. Yeah. And understanding I think from the connection that maybe a few people have with you but just to see this sitting right here. And it definitely inspires me as well, because just the perseverance and resilience that you have demonstrated to get to this point is phenomenal.

Ellen Busch 45:13
Thank you. It's been an incredible journey. As hard as it's been. And as painful as it's been, I am grateful for it. And I look forward to see what comes next. So I'll

Matt Sodnicar 45:27
post links to all this, but where can people get a copy of this and find book signings and their speaking events?

Ellen Busch 45:34
So I have a book signing coming up on September 9, for 30 at the Art social, which is in just a Santa Fe Street, in the arts district of Denver. My website is Ellen bush.com. And don't forget the sea. It's Bush like the beer not like the president. Family joke that everybody gets. Thank you, Anheuser Busch,

Matt Sodnicar 46:00
Busch, on the cover it is.

Ellen Busch 46:05
And then I'm on Amazon, cool. Barnes and noble.com, on LinkedIn, Facebook. So if people want to connect, please reach out. I'm always happy to talk with people about writing about coaching about my experience. I'm looking for more places to tell my story. So speaking opportunities, workshops, even BNI groups, anybody who like who will listen, I'm happy to talk to you.

Matt Sodnicar 46:31
Awesome. Well, Ellen, so great to see you again. It's

Ellen Busch 46:35
great to see you too.

Matt Sodnicar 46:36
Thanks for your patience. Yeah. We're all busy. That's right. Nice job. Thanks.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai